Andrew Cushman is a Chemical Engineer turned real estate investor who started flipping houses in Southern California during the Great Recession. He’s since moved on to multifamily syndication, acquiring B and C class value add properties throughout the South East United States. He’s since acquired and re-positioned over 1800 units to date.
It took Andrew 4576 calls before getting his first deal. He knew it was possible, and he had to do was develop the skillset and to put in the work. It’s the difference between being interested or committed, and it enabled him to leave his corporate position in 2007 to start a business in real estate investment.
What You’ll Learn In Today’s Episode:
- Sometimes to be successful, you have to have faith in yourself, know that it can be done, and then possess the grit to push through it. It took Andrew 4576 calls before he got his first deal, over 6 months of effort, but he persisted. He knew it was achievable because others had done it, so he put in the work and developed the necessary skills.
- Now is an excellent time to focus your energies on your current properties, and really hone your business processes and systems so you can hit the ground running when the market starts to turn.
- When vetting a deal, the number one thing you are betting on is the sponsor. Look at their track record, and ask lots of questions. A good sponsor can fix a bad deal, but a bad sponsor can take a great deal and run it into the ground.
- C (or D) class deals may look great on spreadsheets, but that rarely tells the full story. While there is opportunity, they often require more time and cause more headaches than B or A class assets.
Ideas Worth Sharing:
“Nowadays, that vast majority of our portfolio is B class.” – Andrew Cushman
“We’re still looking at acquisitions, but really we’re trying to be patient and wait for what we expect to be better deals down the road.” – Andrew Cushman
“It took me 4,576 phone calls to get that first deal, which was six months of misery. But the things is, is I persisted, because I knew it worked.” – Andrew Cushman
Resources In Today’s Episode:
Books Mentioned In Today’s Podcast
- Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
- Start With No by Jim Camp
- How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie
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Mark: Today’s guest started flipping houses in Southern California during the great recession and moved into multifamily syndication, acquiring B and C value-add properties throughout the Southeast United States. He’s the founder of Vantage Point Acquisitions and has acquired and repositioned over 1800 units to date. I’d like to welcome Andrew Cushman.
Andrew: Thanks, Mark. Good to be here. You’ve got a great podcast voice.
Mark: Thanks. I don’t know where that came from. I’m around people recording all the time, so maybe I’ve learned how to do it. So, yeah. Thanks for joining. And I’m excited to hear your story. Where did you start and how did you wade into real estate investing?
Andrew: I took the traditional path into real estate and got a Chemical Engineering Degree. And the reason I did that is because in high school I knew I wanted to have my own business and do my own thing. I just had no idea how or what, and I knew I liked chemistry and problem-solving. So, I figured, well, if I get an Engineering Degree, I’ll at least be able to tolerate my job and earn a decent income.
So, I did that was an engineer for a little over seven years. In the meantime, I met my wife eventually got married. She had the same mentality. So, we’ve tried all kinds of little businesses. We tried making flavored popcorn in our kitchen. It tasted great, but made a complete disaster of the house. We tried selling making T- shirts and selling those. We looked into vending, all kinds of stuff. And what we realized was every one of those would make a little bit of money, but it was really just another job.
Andrew: That wasn’t it. And then it was late, 2006, we discovered flipping single family houses. And we went and actually took a course from a fairly local person on how to do that.
Mark: And where was this?
Andrew: This was in California. We actually went up to Sacramento even though it wasn’t like one of these, it wasn’t like a big guru. It was a lady who had been doing it. And she had 12 people there. It was very kind of intimate setting. So, we learned how to do that. And then I worked, we both worked two full time jobs. I did my regular job. And then in the morning I was making phone calls. At lunch I was parked in the parking lot under a tree making phone calls. I get off work, I’d be doing the same thing. Seven days a week. It was insane. But six months later we got our first deal. It was a condo in Orange County.
And then we flipped that renovated it and sold it and basically made as much as I was making at my job all year. We said, okay, this is it. We’ve never seen anything that’s as scalable and as profitable. We don’t have kids yet. There’s no better time. Right as the great recession was starting, I walked in and quit my job went full time into flipping. It was great because we had no competition.
Mark: Oh yeah.
Andrew: We just made sure when we were selling something, we were leaving the market down. So, we always made sure we were priced below everything else. We never had trouble selling anything through the worst recession.
Mark: Even through the recession?
Andrew: Yeah. So, in fact out of every flip we did, we never took us more than 30 days to get a house under contract.
Mark: And yeah, that’s probably Orange County. When did you purchase your first flip? Was it pre-recession?
Andrew: Yeah, it was. We purchased it and sold it mid-2007.
Andrew: And then late 2007, I think it was October ’07 was when Lehman went bankrupt or something like that. And I think it really started to dive after that.
Mark: Yeah. I was buying the same thing in Huntington Park. If you know where that is?
Andrew: Yeah. I do.
Mark: I bought something and I got caught by the Lehman Brothers Bear Stearns crash, but did okay with it. But it was scary. It was harrowing. The mark suddenly the whole world plunged into a global recession at that point.
Andrew: And we had one that we got caught with too, but what we did is we just looked around and saw what was going on and we cut the price, like basically down to break even. And then we had six offers in one week, like right in the middle of everything locking up. We sold it for a small profit and then adjusted and every deal after that was fantastic.
Mark: That’s a good market. It’s got to be a good market to be in that Orange County housing market.
Andrew: There’s always some level of demand on your end. And basically, like I said, we would buy at 50 cents and sell at 80. Instead of selling at full retail. And then, that was great for a few years, 2009, 2010 were fantastic, but we realized it wasn’t going to last forever. And when you’re flipping, you’re only as good as your last flip. And then you get a check and you’re done. So, there’s no residual income. It’s very transactional. It’s kind of like another job.
Mark: Right. Labor intensive.
Andrew: And at that time, I was too inexperienced to figure out scaling by bringing in other people and doing these systems and all that. Like a lot of the flippers today are very, very sophisticated. We were just brute force.
Mark: Did you and your wife do a lot of the work yourself?
Andrew: Well, we hired contractors for the physical work, but my wife and I did everything else.
Andrew: My wife even became a realtor for a while just so we could get that piece of it too. And then, so we said, this isn’t going to last, what’s the next big thing. Well, okay. All these people getting foreclosed on, they can’t buy a house for seven years. A lot of people aren’t going to want to buy a house for a while after they just saw what happened. And we just were in a big recession, which means we’re probably going to start an expansion. All three of those things seem to favor apartment.
We went and found a mentor, a guy who had done about 800 apartment units so far at that time and learn the business from him. And then in 2011, we did our first deal. We syndicated it. It was 92, mostly vacant units on the other side of the country Macon, Georgia close that deal. Probably one of the most stressful six months periods of my life. But it led to the next 1700 or so units. And we’ve been doing it full time since then. And it’s a great business and really enjoy it.
Mark: Wow. So, you were in the middle of the recession, pivoted to multifamily, and then you moved away from Orange County to Macon, Georgia. What was behind that decision?
Andrew: California prices and equity. It’s just a fantastic market to flip in, but it’s not the best market. If you’re looking for cashflow both in terms of, just the sheer math of it. And then also the legislative risk. It’s not a very landlord friendly place. So, we said, well, we want to go invest in places or markets where they’re landlord and business friendly. There are very strong demographic trends. Meeting people and jobs are moving to these areas and not just in short blips, but just over long periods of time and where we can get high yields on the cash that is invested. So that led us to the Southeast United States. So, like Georgia, Carolinas and then Texas,
Mark: How did you find your mentor for the multifamily?
Andrew: We had hired a coach to help accelerate the learning curve for a single-family flipping business. And it was interesting when we decided to do apartments, we called him and like, “Hey, do you know anyone who could basically do what you did, but with apartments?” And he goes, “Actually I do.” And so, he referred us to that guy and he was a good fit. And we hired him. So, it was literally just word of mouth. We found someone who we could hire again to accelerate the learning curve.
Mark: Oh great. Did you choose the market before you found the property or were you looking at a lot of different markets and you just found that deal?
Andrew: Back then. Again, we were nowhere near as sophisticated as we are now. Not that we’re that sophisticated now, but we didn’t have a decade of experience. At that point we were just looking for deals and candidly, nowadays, and even in the last five years, we would never buy something like that again, or in a sub-market like that again. But at that time, we were just looking for a deal that we could get and that underwrote to the yields we were looking for. And candidly, the broker probably saw a sucker coming and say, Hey, we’ll sell you this deal. And I will say, we’re very thankful that we did the deal because it did work out very well financially and doing the first deal is what gets you in the business.
Mark: Baptism by fire.
Andrew: Yeah. Exactly. The deals after that, were fantastic.
Mark: That was a big jump. Did you say 97 units?
Mark: 92 units. What was the condition of the property? Was it a mess?
Andrew: Yeah. And I never recommend anyone do this for their first deal, but it was 75% vacant, low income area. And about 15 years of deferred maintenance. Renovating, it was like peeling back the layers of a rotten onion. Like you take off one, one disease layer and you find out you got three more inside of that. It was definitely a learning experience.
Mark: Yikes. That reminds me, I’m looking at a deal right now. I have some exchange money to place and I like old buildings. I buy a lot of those in LA, but right now, I’m looking at a 1911 property, 30 units in LA. And that’s my fear is like, God, this is built before World War One. What’s behind those walls? I don’t even know. It’s a good price, but it’s a little scary. And I don’t know if I’m going to proceed.
Andrew: Definitely some operational risk and the older the property gets.
Mark: Right. Definitely. Yeah. So, you repositioned mostly vacant property. That must’ve been an amazing learning experience.
Andrew: It was a learning experience in all regards, we had to raise a total of $1.2 million. And again, that was our first ever raise. We underestimated how difficult it was going to be to raise that amount it’s at the bottom of the recession. Nowadays again, that would be taken up in probably 10 minutes of sending out an email, but back then it took six months and we almost didn’t make it.
Mark: Where did you go to get funding?
Andrew: And through our flipping business, we had built a small list of private investors. That’s how we funded our flips. We didn’t have the cash when we started that. So, we would do a deal. And then in fact, our first deal that we’ve got into escrow, I literally walked out the door of escrow and I had some realtor, friends meet us there, basically just for emotional support. And I literally walked out the door and turned to say, “Hey, do you guys have $140,000 you’d like to invest.” Because I didn’t have the money to close the deal. And they looked at me, no we don’t. But we know someone who might, well, 24 hours later, we had the funding to close the deal. And that guy funded every deal we brought to him for the life of the business.
And then more people would be like, “Hey, why can’t we do that?” I’m like, “Well, you can.” “I didn’t know.” So over time we have built up a list. And we went to those people when we were moving into the multifamily syndication and then ask them, well, who else do you know and fill it from there. And our coach brought in a few people as well. So even then we ran short. And we went and we got that. We convinced the seller to carry a note for part of it for like three years until we stabilized it and refinanced to sell.
Mark: I see. That’s remarkable that you pulled that off. That’d be intimidating.
Andrew: We had to use couple of our extensions. And like I said, that’s probably half the reason why I’m going grey. Like I said, it’s what got us started. I’m glad we did it.
Mark: Definitely. And then what did you do from there?
Andrew: In the beginning actually it seems like most people get into this space. We started in the C-class properties and then we shifted. Nowadays the vast majority of our portfolio is more B-class and we’ve done about 1800 units and acquisitions right now are pretty slow with the uncertainty of the market. Probably heading into a serious recession. A lot of sellers don’t want to sell either. Everyone’s waiting to see, well, what happens with coronavirus? What happens with the election? There are just indications pricing will probably be some degree lower in the next nine to 12 months. So, you know, we’re still looking at acquisitions, but really, we’re trying to be patient and wait for what we expect to be better deals down the road.
Mark: What’s the geographic area that you target and how do you go about creating that map and then how do you zero in from there?
Andrew: So, what we do is our geographic preference is the Florida and North Florida. So, Tampa, Orlando, North Georgia, and the Carolinas parts of Tennessee are great. Everyone knows Texas is great. There are lots of other good markets out there. But we had a bunch, we had, I think 900 units in Texas. We sold all those. And we consolidated to the Southeast because you know, there’s great population trends. People are moving from the Northeast and other parts of the country down to the Southeast for the warmer weather, the more business friendly climate, the jobs, the lower cost of living. And that’s an ongoing trend, especially Florida.
Andrew: We want to be where people are going because jobs follow people. We want to be in an area where our rent is affordable to the average person so that when we do get into uncertain economic environments, we don’t have everyone fleeing our overly priced, double A luxury, apartment complex. And then again, just place that’s a little more landlord friendly. So that that’s part of it. And then as far as, like I said, we sold out of Texas, not because Texas is a bad market, but what we realized is there’s an advantage to shrinking our geographic footprint and going deeper with the relationships and the market knowledge in a smaller area versus trying to cover a much bigger area in a more shallow manner.
Mark: That’s got to be challenging being spread out. I know a lot of people do it and do it successfully. I was in LA exclusively for 15 years and then I’ve moved into Austin and try to stick with Austin and LA, but focusing and getting to know two markets really well.
Andrew: That’s good. Obviously, there are lots of people out there who do scattered markets all over the place. You just need to build teams in each of those markets or have someone that can keep their eye on all those different remote spots
Mark: And understand the market in a much deeper level than just looking at what the cashflow is. And I think I get that experience from coming from Ohio, in the Midwest. And I love the Midwest. My heart is still in the Midwest, but I grew up in, one of those rust belt cities where I drove past abandoned buildings on my way to high school every day. And that’s one of the top cashflow markets in the country. But you look back, it’s like, yeah, it’s got high cashflow for a reason.
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Because you won’t get much appreciation, at least not market appreciation.
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Mark: How would you say that your strategy has evolved or has it evolved much since you began in multifamily?
Andrew: Well, it definitely has. In the beginning, we were just trying to get a deal that we could get awarded to us that we could take down. And then one of the things about C-class properties is they always look great on a spreadsheet, but it really actually works out quite as well. Or even if it does. It takes three times the amount of work and effort and headache. So, we’ve shifted into B-class properties. The expression I like to use is whenever you’re looking at a B on spreadsheets, whenever you’re looking at a B versus a C, C-minus or D the grass is always greener over the septic tank.
And that really applies to those properties. We shifted into, into B-class because what we did is, we looked back and once we got about midway through the cycle, we looked back and said, well, man, the B-class properties have appreciated as much, if not more than the C-class. And they’ve required less effort and less headache and less risk in order to get that appreciation. So we made the shift into C-plus to B-minus value-add properties with the idea of being okay, we buy a C-plus we move it to a, B, we buy a B-minus, we move it to a B, or maybe a B-plus, as long as that neighborhood supports that, because you can change a property, but you can’t change the neighborhood.
Mark: What are you doing right now during the current market conditions?
Andrew: We’re very selectively looking at deals, meaning, you know, six months ago, if something didn’t quite meet the parameters, we’d say, Hey, if everything else is good, we might be okay. So maybe the building was five years older than we prefer. Alright, fine. We’ll still look at it. Right now, we’re only looking at properties that check every box. It meets every parameter jumps every hurdle is exactly something we really want that we feel like, okay, we can buy, hold and operate this right through a recession. No problem.
Needless to say, the amount of deals we’re looking at is down dramatically. And so, we’re spending that time. We’ve repositioned our acquisition resources to more focused on asset management so that the properties that we are holding can perform as best as they possibly can, no matter what comes. And then we’re also taking the time to build systems and streamlined so that when we do pick up acquisitions and hopefully not too distant future, we can do so at an increased pace compared to what we did on the last cycle. So basically, we’re still looking at deals, but we’re really trying to lay the groundwork for the next expansion.
Mark: That seems smart. It’s a great time to just take a beat and look at your systems, improve your business and get ready for your next move. How about your team? Who’s on your team?
Andrew: So, my wife is my business partner that nobody sees. We wouldn’t be here without her. And then we’ve got an office manager that’s her desk behind me, or at least it was until we started doing shelter in place. And then we have two acquisitions people, one in Atlanta, one in Sacramento. And then of course we have a couple other principals too, but that’s our core team. And then for the remainder of our team is really third-party.
We have one management company, we started out with several and we consolidated to one that was really, really good. We have one management company that covers all of our assets and they’re less of a third-party management company and more of an operational partner at this point. And we do very tight asset management. I had to do weekly conference and Zoom calls with our property managers and that includes not only the property manager, but the regional, the maintenance people, everybody. So that, if you ask them, they tell them, just say, well, we feel like we work for you. And the management company is just coordinating the payroll.
Mark: That’s nice. You have been doing it for a while, you have these third-party property management lending, and I’ve worked with them for now 15 years and there are members of the property management company who work exclusively on my properties. And it’s a really nice position when they’re technically under the umbrella of the property management company, but you don’t have to pay their benefits and insurances and all that stuff, but you communicate directly with them as if they’re part of your team.
Andrew: I found it to be a really effective hybrid of self-management or true third party in the middle.
Mark: That’s not a bad place to be, I think. As someone who syndicates, what would you advise passive investors looking to work with a sponsor? What kind of questions should you ask to vet a deal sponsor?
Andrew: The number one thing to keep in mind is really at the end of the day. Yeah, you may be putting your money in this fund or in this asset, but you’re really betting on the sponsor. A good sponsor can take a bad deal and turn it good, but a bad sponsor can take an amazing deal and make it bad. And I’ve seen that happen time and time again. So that’s really, the thing to keep in mind is you are really betting on your sponsor and less so on the deal. And there’s no hard and fast question list or rules, but I would definitely say, get on the phone. If you can’t meet them in person, get on the phone and actually talk with them. You want to invest with somebody that you feel is transparent and that communicates well.
So, I would ask for maybe a deal they did a couple of years ago and say, could you send me all the investor communication from when you did the deal ’till now? So, you can see, okay. If I had invested in this deal with this sponsor three years ago, what would it have looked like since then? What have the actual results been? And what is the communication looked like since then? That’ll give you a real good feel of what it’s going to be going forward. Another question that’s good to ask is tell me a deal that you had that didn’t go to plan, or what’s the worst deal that you did or that you had and what happened? How did you handle it? What were the results and ask about that? Because really almost anybody who did a halfway decent job the last 10 years is going to have a list of great results, but you want to know what were the strong wind at your back, but what happened when you made mistakes?
Mark: So, speaking of that, what would you say is your worst deal? Did you have any disasters that you learned a lot from,
Andrew: Our worst one was early on. I think it was maybe late 2013. We bought a large C-minus very distressed property in South Dallas, urban, lower income area. And that, again was before we had developed our screening procedures. Nowadays, when we pray for Pride deal comes up, well first thing, we’re checking, what’s the median income, we’re checking the crime. We’re checking for flood zones are checking population growth. We’re checking a whole long list of things before we’ll even look at the deal. And if it doesn’t pass that screening, we’re just not even going to look at it, but we didn’t have that in place back then. And actually, part of that reason we have that now is because we bought that deal and we looked and we said, okay, how do we not do that again?
So, we bought it. And we looked around and said, well, geez, we can renovate and bump rent’s a hundred plus bucks or whatever. And we were able to, however, the demographics there were such that when someone would move into the unit, every time they moved out, it was destroyed. And we had to renovate it again, not just like turn it, but like renovate it again, most of the units were destroyed by one tenant every time. And then it was early ’70’s construction building. The ongoing CapEx and repairs were just very, very high because it has also been neglected. High delinquency, high bad debt, every time my phone would ring and the manager, the regional, his name popped up. I was just like, oh crap, what is it now? And I know that the listeners can’t see this, but you know, Mark, if you see this, this little piece of metal that I’m holding up, that is a bullet that I pried out of the wall at that property in one of our units.
And I keep it here at my computer as a reminder, never, ever buy that crap again. And then they had a chiller system, which is for those, most of the country doesn’t know what that is. But basically, it’s a one giant air- conditioning system that feeds every unit in the entire complex. It’s you have these huge ammonia compressors and cooling towers and then pipes go underground to all the units, well, those pipes break, especially when they’re 40 years old. And so, you’re sitting there in July, in Dallas with no air conditioning to 348 units. You want to see unrest. That’s a good way. Mark, we did make the right decision of buying in the right market. However, Dallas was very much growing and rising. And so little more than two years into it, we got an off-market offer for what we were hoping to get five years down the road.
And so, we assessed the property, said, look, the way this is trending. This thing could end up becoming an alligator. And what I mean by an alligator, it’s a property that eats you alive. You have to keep feeding it money just to keep it going. And the number one rule of investing is never lose money. Number two, is refer to number one.
Andrew: So, we said look, if we do anything outside of the original performer, we have to take a vote of the investors and we were selling early. So, we did, but we said, look, we believe it’s the best interest to sell now. We’re not going to hit the returns we hoped for. However, by holding this property, we believe there is a risk that we could end up in a negative position. And we feel that it’s smarter to exit with a small profit learn from the experience and then go invest those funds in a better deal and the next deal. And so that’s what we did. We sold it early. We walked away with a small profit, learned a ton of lessons, revised our systems. And that was the last of those kinds of deals we ever had to do.
Mark: That makes sense. And your investors were on board. It seems like they were on board.
Andrew: There were one or two who were, I think that deal probably had 30 something people. And I think there were two people who were like, I didn’t want my money back this soon. I’m like, well, “I understand I didn’t want to sell this soon, but my number one goal is to make sure you don’t lose money. My number two goal was to make sure you get a profit.” So that’s what we did. And we sold it. We moved on. And like I said, fortunately since then, everything’s been fantastic, but better to get out a day early than a day late.
Mark: Yeah. Take your profits and walk away. Great. I have something called multifamily psychotherapy. What’s a trait you possess that has served you best both in real estate and in life?
Andrew: Relentless persistence, just being able to identify, Hey, if I persist at this, it will work. And then just continuing to persist at it. And that’s different from just persisting at something that you have no idea. If it’s going to work or banging, you don’t want to keep doing something that’s not profitable or not fruitful or not beneficial, but that’s one of the beauties of real estate is it’s nothing new. It’s all been figured out. So, what we did is we figured out, Hey, here’s what we want to do in real estate. We went and found someone who’s already successful doing that. So, all we have to do is R and D, rip off and duplicate learn what they’re doing and go execute it. And so, we have been, and still are relentlessly persistent at that. And I think that’s a big, big piece of why we’re here.
Mark: I agree. Yeah. It seems like almost anything that’s worthwhile doing in today’s world where everything’s competitive people, maybe underestimate the timeline that it’s going to take to get there often have to go way past when you expected to already be at success.
Andrew: That’s true. We’ve been to this for a decade and one of the beauties of real estate is everyone says, Oh, it’s not get rich quick, but I’m like, well, first of all, if you do it right, it can be, get rich. So just that sets it above many other things. I know people who went from zero to 5,000 units in six years, that to me is get rich quick. The opportunities are amazing.
Mark: Is there a trait that holds you back?
Andrew: Yes. And I would say if I were to look into what is the thing that probably held me back the most? It was my failure to build a bigger core team earlier in the business cycle. Like I said, now we have a couple of amazing acquisition people and a great manager and our team is I can’t speak highly enough of them. Wish I had done that five years ago. One thing that has held me back is being a little bit too much of a lone Wolf, a little bit too much of I’m going to do everything versus I’m willing to build systems and bring people in to help do it.
Mark: And share the load.
Andrew: Exactly. Share the load and share the benefit.
Mark: I think a lot of people make that mistake. Probably me too. I’m probably guilty of the same thing. If you were to pass on some advice to your younger self, what would it be?
Andrew: Go straight into B-class and skip the C.
Mark: Sure. And how important is mindset to your success?
Andrew: Oh, it’s huge. If you get back to what we discussed on a couple of questions ago about the relentless persistence, that’s a mindset. You have to be willing to just take a beating and continue even when you’re not seeing results for a long period of time, knowing that eventually you will get them. So that first flip that I mentioned way back in the beginning. So what we were doing is we were calling people who were in pre-foreclosure. So, the bank was threatening to foreclose. They hadn’t lost it yet, but they were about to, and we would say, Hey, is there any way we can help? We would try to figure out a way for them to keep the house. If they couldn’t, we could be there to buy it. And I was an engineer. I was not good on the phone.
It took me 4,576 phone calls to get that first deal, which was six months of misery. But the thing is I persisted because I knew it worked. And all it was was me getting to the point where I had the skills and that, for me was a huge gap to fill. I had a lot of skill to develop, but we persisted because we wanted it that bad. We knew this was our shot. We knew other people who had made it work. So, if they made it work, there’s no reason we can’t make it work. Even if we’re starting from behind where they were.
Mark: Yeah. Your description of it, it seems like persistence is a combination of belief. You have to believe that you’re going to succeed and that you can succeed. And then you just have to have a hell of a lot of grit and just gut it out.
Andrew: That’s actually really good. I’ve never heard anyone break it out that way, but you’re a hundred percent, right. You have to have faith in what you’re doing. Then you just have to have the grit to continue doing it because my wife and I were like, well, yeah, hopefully this will work. Or I don’t know. Maybe there’s no way we would have done that, but we truly believe. We know this works. We just have to get ourselves up to the skill level.
Mark: I had that experience just trying to break into the writing business, which took forever, like way longer than I expected. But looking back I knew I could do this. And every punch in the face I got back up and stepped forward because it was going to happen at some point.
Andrew: And then look where you are now.
Mark: In my garage.
Andrew: it’s a nice garage.
Mark: Alright. Are you ready for the question round?
Andrew: Yeah, sure. Let’s do it.
Mark: Awesome. Alright. And now our question round.
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