Vince Gethings is an active duty real estate investor in Honolulu Hawaii, who’s been building a massive real estate portfolio for the past seven years. He holds a green belt LEAN Six Sigma Process Improvement, and specializes in market research, due diligence, strategic planning, project oversight, and execution.
Vince and his team also recently closed on their first syndication, during the chaos of the coronavirus!
Find out how Vince overcame volatile market conditions to wind up in a much better position at the closing table.
What You’ll Learn In Today’s Episode:
Starting out small and putting your own capital at risk is a great way to build systems and learn your strengths and weaknesses in a “sandbox” environment.
No plan is 100% perfect. After you’ve done your due diligence, commit, start taking action, and course-correct as needed.
Stress-test your deals. No one predicted the coronavirus, but those who ran their deals through different doomsday scenarios and prepared for the worst will likely fare better.
Value-add isn’t only about increasing the gross income. Looking for opportunities to reduce expenses can be as profitable and perhaps more dependable than rental increases. Just be sure you’re not looking with rose-colored glasses, sometimes expenses are higher for a reason.
Ideas Worth Sharing:
“The uncertainty of it was hard to wrestle with. We had to go back and completely redo our underwriting.” – Vince Gethings
“I focus on finding properties where there is very inexperienced property management, where they have inefficient systems and bloated expenses.” – Vince Gethings
“Use the smaller properties kind of like a sandbox to build your systems, and more importantly to find out what your strengths and weaknesses are.” – Vince Gethings
Resources In Today’s Episode:
Enjoy the show? Use the Links Below to Subscribe:
Host: Today’s guest serves in the US Air Force on active duty in Honolulu, Hawaii. While building a multifamily portfolio on the side, it’s been a seven year side hustle and he’s built a $5 million portfolio with 120 units under management. He also just closed on his first syndication during the Coronavirus pandemic. I’d like to welcome Vince Gethings.
Vince: Hey Mark.
Mark: That’s quite a bio you got. You just closed on your first syndication during Coronavirus. I got to hear about this. So maybe we jump into that first. So when did you close, what was your closing date?
Vince: April 15th.
Mark: So right in the thick of the panic, where was this property?
Vince: This was located in El Paso, Texas.
Mark: El Paso. Okay. And how many units?
Vince: It was three properties that were all adjacent to each other. That made up a 96 unit community. And we ended up carving out all but 48 of them. We kept the 48 best properties.
Mark: Do you remember when you entered contract pre all of this I would assume, right?
Vince: It was back when it was like an over there problem. Not here. It’s not going to happen here. And so I think like early February is when we got into contract. So it wasn’t really that serious in the USA yet.
Mark: Interesting. And how did you pick El Paso? Had you bought there previously or what was appealing about this market?
Vince: So I’m not the primary push to go to El Paso. So my main market was Michigan. We had closed on 52 units there with some partners in Michigan, and two of my partners had ties to El Paso. So after we closed that deal, got to stabilize they came to the group and say, “Hey, we should look at El Paso.”‘ One of them he’s an LP on a syndication in El Paso on like a 300 something unit deal. And then another partner is in the army and he was stationed at Fort Bliss. So both of them had like really good things to say on El Paso. We started doing our market research. It didn’t take long to come around to them.
Mark: And by the way, where do you invest in Michigan?
Vince: It’s going to be, what’s called the Tri-City area. So Midland, Bay City, Saginaw.
Mark: So that’s up North, right?
Mark: Oh, nice. I’m from the Midwest. I’m From Cleveland and I have cousins and been to Michigan a lot. Michigan’s a cool State, especially up North.
Vince: I think it would be mid Michigan is the middle of the State, I guess, would be geographically more accurate.
Mark: So you must have been in your contingency period as the pandemic just started to unfold and enter the US and was that nerve wracking?
Vince: Absolutely. So it was crazy you never want anything crazy to go market swings while you do due diligence. But the hard part about this one was nobody knew what was on the other end of this. We started looking at some of the best operators in the country, what were they doing? What were their forecasts? And it was ranging everything from the world’s ending. Go cash out and buried in the yard to this will blow over the whole V balance, analogy of, yeah, we’re going to hit really sharp down and then we’re going to have a really sharp up. And then everywhere in between. So the uncertainty of it was really tough to wrestle with. And we just had to go back and completely redo our underwriting. We listened to some of our mentors, our advisors and got new advisement from them on how to stress test our deals. And as far as our proforma
Mark: Like you said, this is so unprecedented, there was no model of a past pandemic to look at to see how multifamily weathered. So what were their advice?
Vince: So the way we did it was we had about four or five people that we value their insight a lot. And we just put them in an Excel sheet, like almost like rows or columns, like advisor one says this, advisor two said this, and we kind of asked them the same question. What would you put your economic vacancy at, during this period over the next six months to a year and ask them all the same question and then rent growth or additional income lost lease, things like that. And we built it into an Excel sheet and we just average them out. And the average came to a 30% economic vacancy for the next six to nine months was the average for their 0% rent growth all the way to a 10% negative rent growth, no additional income over the next year. And I think those are the big ones. The big levers
Mark: Did you ask for a big concession?
Vince: We did. We ended up putting those numbers in to our model and it didn’t kill the deal, just the return wasn’t worth the risk. So we had to go back and ask for a concession and what we did was super transparent, super empathetic to the broker and the seller like, Hey nobody could have predicted this, but this is where we’re at now. Everything we’ve done up to this point, doesn’t matter it’s not applicable all the underwriting, all the negotiating, this entirely, completely new deal and a new market, we need to start over is kind of how we approach that conversation. And actually it ended up to where we voted to get out of the deal first. So it was like on a Friday, we voted to, Hey, let’s back out of the deal.
And if it’s still available, come July, August we’ll re-engage. So I’d called the broker, gave him the bad news. And then we spent pretty much all weekend from Friday night to Sunday no sleeping, just lots of coffee, lots of time on Excel sheets to figure out how we can make this deal still work. Like what would we need to still preserve our investor’s capital, give them a decent return and just limit our downside as much as possible. What would that look like? And we draw out some models, some financial models, some proformas and different scenarios. And then by Monday we had about 11 pages worth of notes that we went back to the broker with and like, okay just so you know, we’re out of the deal, but this is what would make it work for us.
And then, kind of just throwing a hail Mary to see, if they would go forward or not. And they ended up giving us a cash credit at closing, plus all of April’s rents, as a credit, as closing where normally it would be like a pro rata rent for the month. We ended up getting full rent rolls worth of rent for April. So regardless of what April’s collections were, we got a hundred percent is basically what happened. So I ended up being about 90 grand seller credit at closing. And then when we modeled that into the thing that gave us about 14 months of mortgage payments upfront at closing. So we felt pretty confident after that.
Mark: That sounds like a pretty good concession. What was the total purchase price?
Vince: Purchase price was around 1.5.
Mark: 1.5. And you got a $90,000 credit?
Mark: When you had your Friday call, how did the broker react? I’m sure they could foresee this coming. I mean, every broker was getting the same call.
Vince: I didn’t want to come across like, hey, we’re just using this crisis as a way to squeeze more stuff out of the seller and just come across like that.
Mark: Taking advantage.
Vince: Taking opportunity from the crisis, so I didn’t want to come across like that. So I thought it was just preserve the relationship with the broker first and just sorry this happened we’ll get the next one. Is kind of how that call went. And then we spent all weekend trying to just remodel like a month’s worth of underwriting.
Mark: What happened with the loan basically along your journey I would imagine your lenders were reacting to the pandemic as well as everyone else. And a lot of things were changing on the loan side. So what was your experience with that?
Vince: So, going into it, we had three lenders lined up. One of them backed out completely. “Hey, we’re done, we’re putting a moratorium on all lending for the next 60, 90 days.” The second lender who was actually our lead lender came back to us and said, they dropped the LTV from 75 to 65. And then the last lender who we ended up going with didn’t move on any of their terms. They gave us incredible terms. And any day of the week, not just for the Coronavirus or anything, if we got these terms in December, they would have been phenomenal.
Mark: Who was the lender?
Vince: FirstLight out of El Paso. A local credit union out of El Paso.
Mark: And what were your terms? What did your terms look like?
Vince: So we got a 75% LTV they did not move on that. Interest rate was a 3.625, 25 year and I think 20 year term with no yield maintenance.
Mark: Nice. That’s amazing, that’s a really good loan.
Vince: Yes. And so the only curve ball they threw us was after we got back into the deal. So we got the seller credit, the $90,000 seller credit at closing to help cushion what’s going to happen over the next few months. The lender called and while they were doing their committee. And they wanted 12 months of PI upfront. And because we talked to a lot of smart people and our advisors and mentors. We saw this coming. So we had already earmarked whatever that credit was that we were going to get was going to be for mortgage payments that were for PI debt service for at least a year. So we modeled for a year up to 18 months of PI or PITI in an escrow account. And that’s what happened was we ended up having to do 12 months of mortgage payments, but we had modeled all the way up to 18 months and the deal still works.
Mark: And that’s not a bad thing to give up, especially during this kind of situation you’re getting it back. It’s not an additional cost that leverage will come back to you after 12 months, it gives the lender comfort. The challenge is just coming up with the money, especially when you’re syndicating. How did you raise your funds? Did you have a challenge finding investors?
Vince: Not really, no for this deal, the raise wasn’t that high it was only 650,000. And between the four of us, we were able to leverage our existing relationships. And we had credibility from the 52 units that we just closed last year. So we had the proof of concept. We already had the systems in place. We were just rolling them into a new market, into a new deal. That’s almost identical business plan. So we didn’t have a whole lot of struggle getting the confidence of investors or the bank to buy into our business plan. But yeah, the raise wasn’t too hard on this one. We didn’t really have any newer relationships that weren’t already cultivated over the last few years.
Mark: Got it.
Vince: Who knows that we’ll actually have to go out and raise some funds.
Mark: What was your strategy on this one? Is this a value add or stabilized?
Vince: No. Its value adds C-class. In 1984, build C-class, C-neighborhood. My value add is a little bit different than most people’s. So I, as an operator, I do mainly the execution of the business plan and the rollout of the different phases. And I focus a lot on management systems, so inefficient management systems and expenses, that’s my bread and butter. So when I look for value add, I don’t necessarily look for properties that are 100 to $200 under market rent.
And the goal is to go in there and raise the rents $200. And that’s what will make the deal work. I focus on finding properties where it’s very inexperienced property management, where they have inefficient systems, bloated expenses, when you get their T12 and they’re operating at 60% or sometimes higher OPEX ratios. That’s what I focus on because I know I can come in there and just with my knowledge of running programs and experience with that, and just run more efficient systems and reduce expenses. So that’s my main, business model.
Mark: That’s smart.
Vince: And then we usually raise rents anywhere from like 10 to 15% it’s usually what we look for.
Mark: Now, if you’re enjoying the show, please do us an easy favor and hit the subscribe button. And if you like the show, please give us a five star review. As a listener I always wondered why podcast hosts are always begging me to subscribe and rate them. Well, now that I’m on the other side, I see why it allows other listeners to find you. So here I go, if you like the show, please subscribe and give us a five star review. I like doing it. And more importantly, in an era of unprecedented hype over real estate investing, my goal is to be a truth teller. Real estate is not as easy as it’s made out to be, but you can do it. If you can get past the hype and get to the truth. My aim is for this show to help with that. Anyway, let’s get back to the show.
Mark: It’s smart to try to focus on expenses. As long as I often see buyers that are a little too optimistic on what they can like, Oh, we could do better than what the sellers are doing with their expenses. But I always think it’s better to improve the property on the expense side than depend on improving the income side.
Vince: Yes. Absolutely. You can do your research and figure out what the expense per door cost is for your market. And you can get pretty dialed in if it’s $3,800 a year, if it’s $4,200 a year, whatever it is, but for income to me, it’s harder to dial in what the rent premium is for that market. Like if your entire business plan is we’re going to go in there and we’re going to raise rent $150. Because based off your Rentometer report. And it says that average rents are $150 higher. There’s so much goes into that, that people don’t realize what amenities are those $150, higher units offering. It’s not just apples to apples. To me I think I can control expenses a lot more than I can anticipate a rent bump.
Mark: I never trust the Rentometer. Is that how it’s pronounced, Rentometer?
Vince: I don’t know.
Mark: I look at it a lot and I’ve noticed that it doesn’t reflect what I experience on my own buildings on what the rents are.
Mark: So that’s cool. Let’s step back because you have a fascinating story. You were in the military and you’ve been doing this for a while seven years. So you must’ve jumped in 2013. How did you get into it?
Vince: So, I bought into, it was Bay Area, California, where I was stationed and I was into like the bigger pockets, live in flipper strategy thing. So I was using it’s called the VA, the VA home loan house hack which is pretty much you just buy a house and live in it and flip it while you’re living there using VA zero down loan. So that was my strategy. So I bought that in 2013, sold it in 2016 and had a pretty good amount of capital from that. And then from there, I didn’t want to flip anymore. So I was looking into small multifamily, so reading the Brandon Turner books, and I got into buying duplexes and fourplexes in Michigan, because my wife was from there and I bought 20 units in around 18 months. So that was my initial jump into multifamily was all duplexes and fourplexes in Michigan.
Mark: And were you using proceeds from your sales in the Bay area or was this re-raising capital for these deals in Michigan?
Vince: No, that was using the proceeds. So I cashed out of that house in the Bay Area, California, and I think it was like 130,000. So that was my seed money to start buying property in Michigan. And at the time I was just doing your conventional 20% down, get a house 20% down and get a house and then I liked it. So I ended up cashing out of my 401k, my IRAs and my brokerage accounts and stuff like that and going full into real estate. And that’s where we got the 20 units from. And that was by mid-2018 is kind of where I hit that plateau in my investing
Mark: The plateau. What was the plateau that you were hitting? Was it just limited cash?
Vince: It was couple things. So the plateau, I shopped 20 units pretty fast and I thought I was doing good. And then I ran out a lot of that capital. And then my systems reached their bandwidth capacity too at the time. And I don’t know how to explain it, but it was like, I know there was something that I didn’t know, I was able to identify like, there’s more to this than what I know than just the knowledge of my time. So I had to go out and go get a coach, a mentor, somebody to help me break through that plateau to the next level. And that’s when I went out and researched a bunch of programs, jumped into one and then ended up getting 52 units within six months. Actually, I think I was under contract for four or five months after starting the program and getting some mentorship from really smart people.
Mark: Was that Jake and Gino.
Vince: Yes. The Jake and Gino Wheelbarrow Profits Academies was what I jumped into.
Mark: Nice. Those guys are great.
Vince: Yes. Absolutely. So with Gino’s mentorship, definitely I just blew through that plateau. And I think it was like put on a timeline. I think it was like October, 2018. I started the program and I was in contract on a 52 unit by like January 2019.
Mark: And where was that 52? Was it in Michigan as well?
Vince: Yes. That was the same market Michigan. And we closed out as a JV. So our partnerships it was me. I found three people through networking and meetups. We all put 25% down and we close on that 52 unit and started scaling up our businesses and knowing where we lacked and what parts of our businesses needed the most attention.
Mark: I love that. I really like your process of step laddering. I like that you used your own money for the first few years and did multiple deals that’s admirable because you risk your own money at the outset before you start risking other people’s money. And then you got a mentor and partnered with likeminded people and went in and got bigger and you were growing all along and learning, learning a ton. I’m sure. And then you did your first syndication during a disastrous pandemic.
Vince: There’s always a kind of a question of when should people get coaches and to me it’s definitely up to your personality, but for me, I think most people would benefit from doing a couple of deals. Even if they’re small, just to figure out like one day they can go through an entire transaction, start to finish and understand the basics of real estate. But more importantly, kind of use that as like a sandbox. It’s very hard to go bankrupt losing everything on a duplex. So use the smaller property like a sandbox to build your systems. And for me more importantly to figure out what your strengths and weaknesses are, if you’re very cognizant of your performance over those early transactions.
And you’re honest with yourself you can annotate what areas you’re strong at and what areas you are weak at. So you could either spend time increasing your strengths, increasing your weaknesses, or go find partners that compliment your weaknesses, which is what I did.
Mark: Right. Divide and conquer by getting someone else who’s good at what you’re weak at. And then you have a frame of reference from your own experience. When you get into coaching, you probably understand their lessons at a deeper level as a result. Is there a failure or mistake that you made early on that later, you found key to your success?
Vince: Early on over renovating units. I think was one of the first things I’ve done. And then so couple properties with that, or couple of mistakes big on that sandbox property, the first fourplex I bought. So one, I over renovated the unit and wasn’t really conscious of my budget, I was renovating, like I was going to live there, not what the market was going to support. So I learned a lot from that and lost money from that. So to speak it just means I have to hang on the property longer than I planned to recoup that in cash flow that the extra CapEx that I put into it. So there’s over renovating units, not sticking through with multiple bids from contractors.
Mark: Sure. A lot of people.
Vince: Everybody says that, Oh, go multiple bids. And then they just fail in actual practice of following through the bids and slowing down, getting bids, vetting them, sitting down, looking all apples to apples as follow up questions. And not just going with the first person that you like.
Mark: Do you use third party property management or do you manage it yourself?
Vince: I do. So being in the military, I built my entire company, which are three, companies now all with me not being there. So all out of state, all third parties managed.
Mark: Managed by a third party operator and you just monitor them what they’re doing.
Vince: Exactly. So manage the managers is what I do.
Mark: Exactly. What do you think? What do you consider investment Kryptonite’s the biggest thing that kills an investment?
Vince: Cash flow is probably the biggest one. If it doesn’t cash flow, then you’re taking on a considerable amount of risk for that property.
Mark: Right. And you need to verify and look skeptically at the advertised cash flow. I don’t know, after 20 years of buying multifamily buildings, myself often, what is advertised as cash flow, mysteriously evaporates sometimes when you take over the building.
Vince: Yes. Absolutely. I do a full on financial audit when we go into due diligence. It’s kind of like this whole circle thing. We started the rent roll. So it’s okay, let’s get the rent roll and then get the leases and then bump the rent roll against the leases. And then I asked for the bank statements, I’m like, okay, well now I want the P and L so I get the T12 and bumped the T12 against the rent roll against the bank statements to make sure that they’re getting the rent they say they were getting.
They’re reporting the rent, they’re say they’re getting. And then the amount that’s actually getting deposit in the bank matches the rent roll and the T12. And then I go one step further of getting last X amount of years of taxes or K1’s or whatever they have to show that, okay, this is what they’re saying on the T12. They collected, what they’re actually reporting as their gross revenue on their tax returns. So I take all those documents and I just create like a storyboard or a storyline and just audit all of them across each other and find discrepancies that way. And I found that to be pretty effective.
Mark: That’s great. Verifying the deposits in the bank is smart. Sellers are incentivized to get the maximum price for their building. So they will often inflate the cash flow that is really there.
Vince: And a lot of the time it’s not give them the benefit of the doubt. It’s not them inflating it, or just trying to misrepresent. A lot of times I find out that it’s just bad bookkeeping. They’re just trying to like, yeah, I taught myself how to bookkeep and all this stuff. And I’m like, you’re giving me like, scan copies of like yellow tablet, paper. I’m like, what? So, there’s a kind of a mix between both, but yeah.
Mark: What do you think the biggest myth or misperception being perpetuated in real estate investing is nowadays?
Vince: I don’t know, for me, syndication’s easy. I got a dozen deals under my belt before this last one. And I still had a pretty high level of stress and learned a ton of stuff. So I think that would be the thing for me. Also, I’m not that smart, so I’m sure there are guys out there right out of college, they got MBA and they’re just super sharp and their MBA or finance degrees that can probably crush syndication out the gate. But I think for most people, they try to make syndication a lot easier than it actually is.
Mark: Right. I think it’s more challenging than is advertised. And you know, what is nowadays the current economic environment is going to be a great school for syndicators. It’s going to be a challenge. It’s easy to be successful when the wind is at your back when the market is charging upward. But when it’s going through some rocky terrain, that’s when you’ll have to hone your systems and prove yourself. What’s a trait that you possess that has served you best both in real estate and in life?
Vince: Kind of a trait and a good and a bad is the ADD kind of personality or affliction I have. I just have to keep moving and I have to just jump in. For real estate, you see a lot of people that get analysis paralysis, where everything has to be perfect. Every plan has to be perfect. Everything has to be in its place before they can take one baby step forward. And what happens is they just don’t do anything for years and years and years, and they just never get into it. For me I can’t sit still long enough to have plans 100% perfect. So I get to a point where it’s viable with a good probability of success. It’s going to be 90% successful let’s just jump in and take action. We’ll figure out the other 10% as we go. It gets a little bit better when you get experienced. But I think if you’re just early on, don’t wait until the plan is a hundred percent perfect to jump in because it’s never going to be
Mark: Right. You’ll never know everything. There will always be unknowns. And you just got to act, you may have just answered this with that response, but is there a trait that you feel that holds you back that you still need to work on?
Vince: Probably being more extroverted is a trait that I think I need to get better at. Being able to just talk to people, go, network more and be more outgoing, more enthusiastic, where it doesn’t just drain my energy. Because normally I can go out there and I can work a room. I can go teach a class, but then I have to go sleep for like 20 hours after because I’m drained. So hopefully I get better at that. The more I get used to networking more and being in groups more but that’s probably the biggest one.
Mark: I’m a complete introvert by nature. And so I’m always trying to force myself to be more extroverted. That’s why I’m doing a podcast, gets me out of my shell. If you were to pass on some advice to your younger self, what would it be?
Vince: Partner sooner and go buy commercial property sooner.
Mark: So are you ready for our question round?
Mark: And now our question round.
The book you’ve recommended most over the past year.
Vince: Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss.
Mark: Good book. Favorite quote.
Vince: “Set goals to match your potential, not your ability.”
Mark: Nice. An online tool or app that brings you the most value.
Mark: Do you eat food past its expiration date if it looks fine?
Vince: Yes. Probably.
Mark: A bad or cheesy movie that you love.
Vince: Pop Star with the guy from Brooklyn 99.
Mark: Yes. Andy Samberg.
Vince: Andy Samberg.
Mark: I never saw that.
Vince: That’s my like mindless, just crack a couple of beers and sit on the couch and just laugh for dumb jokes.
Mark: I have about five of those movies. Your most impressive, totally useless skill.
Vince: I can hacky sack pretty well. It’s pretty useless.
Mark: That’s great. Which decade created the greatest music?
Vince: The 90’s.
Mark: Any bands,?
Vince: Man, for me, it’d be Sublime, they’re all punk rock type.
Mark: Oh yeah.
Vince: Music genre.
Mark: We got real in the 90’s. Grunge was a rebuttal to pop rock of the late 80’s.
Vince: Like every genre music exploded in the 90’s was great.
Mark: I agree. What was your most awkward year?
Vince: I don’t know. It got to be some kind of freshman sophomore year shenanigans.
Mark: Aside from real estate. One thing you could spend all day talking about.
Vince: Flying planes.
Mark: Yes. You’re in the Air Force. Do you fly?
Vince: Yes and no, I am in the Air Force, but I’m enlisted. So I do not fly planes for the Air Force, but I am a private pilot and I have a small Piper warrior out here in Hawaii that I fly on my personal time.
Mark: Oh, nice. Your favorite sound in the world?
Vince: Silence. I got three little kids. So is that an acceptable answer? The sound of silence.
Mark: And the answer is acceptable. Have you ever had a paranormal experience?
Vince: I think I have, but it’s one of those things where you’re asleep, but you’re kind of conscious like that weird state of like in between. And like you see something and then you don’t know if you were dreaming it or not.
Mark: I just saw a weird article and I don’t know if it was fake news, but in the Air Force, do you ever hear about pilot encounters with strange unidentified objects?
Vince: I’ve read a lot of reports that probably same as you have, but then there’s like some of those like weird audios from the voice recorders or it’s like the pilots kind of narrating what they’re seeing. Those are pretty weird, but I’ve had more experience more of like a haunted plane than I have with some like UFO type stuff.
Mark: Cool. Weirdly like a couple days ago it was published by CBS news saying that the government was acknowledging that they have all these photos and they showed the photos of these strange objects taken by pilots. And I think it was Air Force.
Vince: I have to check it out. That’s cool. I’ve seen some recorders where you’re talking like a fighter pilot going mock two and something passes them going faster just blows past them in the sky. And for that to happen, they got to be going mock three, mock four. And it was like, it wasn’t anybody from us, but they’re all on YouTube and stuff like that. So who knows if they’re real or not.
Mark: Right. Right. The most amazing place in nature you’ve ever been.
Vince: By living in Hawaii. So there’s that, but other than that, I really like Tahoe.
Mark: Yes. Tahoe is great.
Vince: It’s a pretty cool spot.
Mark: I love it. Yosemite. You’re not far from Yosemite as well. What movie can you quote from the most?
Vince: Stepbrothers is pretty quotable.
Mark: I love Stepbrothers. When are you happiest?
Vince: That’s a trick question. Obviously when I’m with my family.
Mark: That’s a trick question. You have to say that?
Vince: Yes. I think you have to, if my wife’s going to ever hear this.
Mark: Finally, where can listeners reach out to you.
Vince: If you want to reach out to me, email@example.com or on Facebook, we run a meetup group, the Honolulu Chapter of Multifamily and More so you can find us on there. Honolulu Multifamily and More. Our Facebook group meet up and can come chat with us and join our virtual meetups now is what we have.
Mark: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this.